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Norton
Member
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 05:29 pm |
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I've not posted on this section of the forum before, I also have a MK1.
I could do with your opinions please..... sorry this is a bit of a rant!
My wife was driving the car this morning, and as she braked to turn right at a junction, there was a loud bang, and the car veered off to the right. Fortunately she wasn't going very fast and managed to stop without crashing!
I arrived at the scene and had a look under the car. The front tie rod had come out of its mounting to the front subframe. The nut, washer and rubber bushes had come off, leaving a bare thread - also the top balljoint had snapped (ball was still in socket - tapered shaft with nut on the end was still on the top suspension arm.)
I looked down the road and recovered one of the rubber bushes, and the large washer. the nut was nowhere to be found.
A few months ago the car had a lot of work done on it (it was rather abused by its previous owner) It had (amongst other things) new front tie rods and front wheel bearings.
I called the garage who did the work, and they came to collect it (fortunately they also run a breakdown service!) We discussed theories on what may have happened.
My theory
When the tie rods were replaced, the nut wasn't tightened up properly, and it has worked loose over the last thousand miles or so. The nut probably dropped off within the last mile or two, and when my wife used the brakes, the tie rod pulled through and put extra load on the ball joint, which broke.
His theory
The balljoint was defective and broke due to metal fatigue, this caused increased load on the tie rod, and the nut failed and came off the tie rod...! He reckons he's never seen a ball joint break before - and these guys are mini specialists.
We both inspected the tie rod and agreed it was totally undamaged. No marks on the thread at all! The bracket it secures to was also not bent and looked perfect.
I do agree though, that I was surprised that a ball joint would break so easily. There was no impact, and the speed was quite low, although the tie rod coming adrift would surely put a loading on the ball joint that it wasn't designed to take.
Its going to be a very difficult one to prove either way. I certianly can't prove that nobody has touched the tie rods since he did the work. However, it seems impossible that the nut could pull off the thread and not cause any damage to the tie rod at all - it still loooked brand new!
I realise its even more difficult for you guys to have an opinion without seeing the car, but which theory do you think sounds more likely.... don't spare my feelings if you think his theory sounds more likely.... give it to me straight! 
He's going to inspect the car tomorrow and let me know what he's found. I could be faced with paying the cost of the recovery and the repair if he wins the argument! 
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 06:12 pm |
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Hi Norton,
The most important thing is that your wife was not going very fast and she was able to stop safely without any injury but I bet she was really shook up.
I would have thought that if the nut pulled off the tie rod there would have been evidence on the threads.
Your theory sounds more probable but how could the Nyloc nut have unwound? The only ways I can think is it was the incorrect thread originally and only tightened up on the nylon part or someone (for whatever stupid reason) loosened the nut .
Let us know the outcome so we can all check our cars.
Andrew
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Norton
Member
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 06:29 pm |
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Yes she was certainly lucky it happened at low speed. If it had failed on the motorway I think it would have been very serious
I forgot they were Nyloc nuts.... I never checked the other side to see if they had replaced them with the correct type of nut. Worth a look I suspect.
Forgot to mention that the tie rods were replaced with adjustable ones - presume they would use the same type of thread and nut...?
I suppose its possible that the nylon part of the nut could have been damaged when it was removed, and didn't prevent it from coming undone.
I can see there is going to be an argument tomorrow!
You should see the car they lent me...... Suitable material for the other section of the forum!!
I don't want to post a picture of it at the moment though, as it has the name of the garge plastered all over it.
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 06:35 pm |
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| Well that rules out the pants Mini then
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DaveShreeve
Administrator
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 07:31 pm |
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I've seen several broken ball joints, mainly down to lack of grease, usually associated with slightly bent subframe tie rod brackets and/or deformed tie rod bush washers. I've never seen any nut and bolt combination that manages to completely remove the complete thread from one without damaging the other. For the tie rod thread to be OK it suggests the complete thread must have been removed from the nut - if this was the case I'd expect the threads to still be on the tie rod.
Try to check the other tie rod nut. If they weren't renewed when the tie rods were changed your looking at worse case scenario. The nylon would have been enlarged by any rust or muck on the old unit so that there would be no locking action on the new threads of your new adjustables. Manufacturers always state locking devices should be renewed but Nylocs must be the worst for losing their effectiveness; Philidas, spring washers, and tab washers do at least make some attempt to perform their function even if their effectiveness is reduced. Once the nylon is used and cut, especially on dirty threads, Nylocs can be regarded as a normal nut!
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Gray
MCR Member
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Posted: Sunday September 30th, 2007 10:12 pm |
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I agree with dave, nylocs should always be replaced and are not reusable. My parents spi ball joint sheared off across the top of the top arm with the nut attached, this just sat on their drive, luckily they saw the nut on the deck before they drove off. I would think that it was down to the nut coming off the tie rod. If you cannot get them to agree with you I'm sure you could come to a deal with them covering the recovery at least.
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Tuesday October 2nd, 2007 07:24 pm |
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I hope they fitted the tie-rod bolts the right way so the nut was attached at the bottom of the arm and not at the top?
Sometimes it's difficult getting the bolt out to replace the tie-rod without removing the ball-joints.
So people have made the mistake of fitting the bolt the wrong way up and so if the nut comes loose the bolt then drops out, which results in the tie-rod breaking free.
That may not have been the case here, but I thought it worth mentioning anyway.
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Tuesday October 2nd, 2007 09:26 pm |
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| How did the inquest go Norton ?
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AMS
MCR Member
| Joined: | Thursday January 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 114 |
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Posted: Thursday October 4th, 2007 09:35 am |
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| One thing worth remembering is that if as previously mentioned the nylock is reused, the action of the suspension is obviously up and down and this would rotate the tie bar continuously probably leading to the removal of the nut.
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hawaiianblue
Member
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Posted: Thursday October 4th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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It does sound like the nut on the end of the tie rod came off tbh. If the nut was torn off, then there would have been some distortion of the tie rod thread.
Ball joints can snap quite easily, if the pin comes round against the cup hard then it will just slice the pin off. The edges of the cup are sharp and the pin has a thinner part to allow movement.
Sometimes it's difficult getting the bolt out to replace the tie-rod without removing the ball-joints
only sometimes? Normally they're so rusted in there you could safely run with out nuts on them!
Obviously when you refit new ones, it's best to grease the bolts with copper grease.
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Norton
Member
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Posted: Thursday October 11th, 2007 06:29 am |
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Sorry for the late reply... the week from hell at work!
I went back to collect the car. The guy had the old ball joint for me to inspect as requsted. You could clearly see the mark where the pin had hit the cup to shear it off. They still insisted that the balljoint had failed due to metal fatiuge, and the nut on the tie rod was also faulty He wanted £250 for recovering me and replacing the ball joint!! 
I had a really good argument with the owner of the garage. I said I would pay under protest, but I wanted a written statement from him explaining his theory of what had happened. I made it clear that I was going to take it futher.
He then made a rather amusing offer...... he suggested I took the car away without paying, and he was going to hire a track for the day to conduct an experiment. He will take one of his minis to the track and we will remove the nut on the tie rod, drive it at 30mph and hit the brakes to see what happens He said he will be in touch over the next couple of weeks. I quickly agreed and drove away! If anyone fancies coming along to witness this, I'll be sending out the invites soon!!
Of course I'll never hear from him again......
I suppose he got some sort of revenge in one respect, the horrid "hire car" he lent me leaked petrol all over my front drive and has made a right mess..... I wish I'd taken a picture of it, but I don't really want to mention the name of the garage on this web site.... it was plastered all over the side of the car........ it was a very nasty 1975 mini 1000 - it was a cooper s though.... it had the boot badge to prove it
If anyone that lives near me is looking at using any "mini specialists" in this area, PM me and I'll make sure you steer away from these guys.....
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Thursday October 11th, 2007 01:21 pm |
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That's bad news mate and it's unfortunate that sometimes we learn from our experiences on who to avoid and who to trust with our Minis.
I hope you have more luck in the future.
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Mk 3 S Meister
MCR Member
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Posted: Thursday October 11th, 2007 05:12 pm |
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| I've in a couple of cars where the tie bar has pulled through the front subframe and broken the top ball joint under braking - apart from the sharp edge of the cup, the amount of force and angle on the ball joint is something it was never designed to deal with.
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