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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 18th, 2007 08:36 am |
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I tried to post this in the General section, but it wouldn't let me, so I'm hoping there are some MPI owners who can help me. Has anyone out there got any experience in rustproofing their Minis?
I've just had my MPI back from having repairs done to the scuttle panel (quite badly rusted - I thought I was catching it early as the bubbles had just started to appear under the windscreen rubber! Quick, run out and have a look at yours).
Anyway, the scuttle was repaired and filled through with Waxoyl, which got me thinking about doing the rest of the car myself.
Has anyone got any experience using the 'pump up' kit that you can get from Halfords and the like? How did you ensure the drainage holes in the sills/doors didn't get blocked (Pipe cleaners)? Where did you access the sills/any box sections etc. How did you thin the stuff down so you could actually spray the damn stuff (as I remember its quite thick at ambient temp)? How much does it take to thoroughly coat a Mini?
And any advise on how to cope with the smell afterwards - its bad enough with just the scuttle!
Cheers
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 18th, 2007 01:46 pm |
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Can I just kick off by saying that I've got all the Waxoyl gear but haven't actually used it yet.
Okay not much help I know, but I have heard that it helps if you stand the Waxoyl tin in a bucket of near boiling water (from a kettle) for a few minutes and add some white spirit to help it flow and creep into every nook and cranny.
As for the sills, well I'm sure there are pre-drilled holes along the inner sills on the inside (on Twin-Point Minis?) and they have little black plugs to bung them up. So just remove them and stick you're probe in there.
I suppose you could also stick the probe through the drainage hole/vents underneath and through the drainage holes beneath the doors.
But it's still worth removing the door panels and plastic membrane and spraying through the inspection holes too. I know you can remove the seat belt fixing bolts and probably use the probe there and of course through the door check/arm holes because that will get down into the A'panels.
Also do inside the battery box, boot lid and behind the petrol tank if you can so the inner arch doesn't rust through.
Then it's down inside the rear companion boxes and it wouldn't hurt to spray some under the front wheel arches in the vicinity of the front panels and wings (around the headlamps), because that is a favourite rusting area on Minis.
I guess you'd have to clean off any dirt first to ensure the stuff holds and is able to do it's job.
Oh and it would also be a good idea to spray some under the wings, right above the air vent trunking because that can hold dirt and moisture against the wings which in turn causes them to rust through.
I'd leave it all set nicely and then clean out the drainage holes with a small screwdriver or pipe cleaners etc. The smell will go eventually and I imagine it's only the chemicals used to stop it setting inside the tin.
It will dry or harden, resemble dried porridge and the smell will go. But until then it's probably wise to leave the windows open until the worst of it's gone.
I almost forgot about the rear subframe and a good coating inside the webbings and all over is a good idea. Plus try to get some in between the frame and the boot floor too.
I intend carrying out this very task myself over the winter (I guess it would be better to wait for warmer weather though). But I've already done inside my boot and sprayed some down those little holes that are located each side of the boot area, just beneath the rear lights. Getting Waxoyl down there will help preserve the rear panel side pieces which can fill with water and rust out if you're not careful.Last edited on Tuesday September 18th, 2007 02:04 pm by taffy1967 |
Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 18th, 2007 03:43 pm |
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Hi taffy,
Just a couple of questions:
What are you referring to when you talk about the door check/arm holes? I'm not familiar with the names.
Companion boxes - are we talking about the rear internal storage bins? If so, I've never dismantled the inner plastic mouldings, are we just talking plastic retaining clips?
I remember someone telling me about mixing in white spirit in the dim & distant past, but how much? Adding too much would effect its ability to stick before its had a chance to dry wouldn't it?
Do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if disconnecting the battery does funny things to the MPI? I've heard stories of funny occurances afterwards........ I don't have the standard radio so am not worried about the code, but don't you have to have the ECU reset or something, on reconnection? (Surely not)
As for the underneath, I've already done this but I used the black gooey Waxoyl stuff which comes in a spray can. Its quite good stuff, gets into the nooks & cranies and I did everywhere from the front headlights/wings to the rear subframe. I was careful not to cover the brake pipes although this would probably give them better protection! Yes make sure you clean off the dirt and any lose rust and also do the car when the weathers dry as you don't want to be trapping moisture onto the car.
You're right- it probably would be better to do this in the warmer weather - too late now! Besides, doing it in July would've been pretty wet this year!!!
Have you used the plastic pump pressuring kit?
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 18th, 2007 10:18 pm |
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Hi taffy,
Just a couple of questions:
What are you referring to when you talk about the door check/arm holes? I'm not familiar with the names.
Right their the little arms you see when you open you're doors and they disappear into the door frame. You have to insert the probe through the aperture and down to get into the A'panel.
Companion boxes - are we talking about the rear internal storage bins? If so, I've never dismantled the inner plastic mouldings, are we just talking plastic retaining clips?
Yes, but I'm not sure how the plastic mouldings come out though. Perhaps you could check out the Haynes manual, or how about one of the Mini specialists like Somerford who provide parts lists in PDF format on their website. You should be able to tell from that what holds them in position?
I remember someone telling me about mixing in white spirit in the dim & distant past, but how much? Adding too much would effect its ability to stick before its had a chance to dry wouldn't it?
Only a small percentage like say 5% perhaps? It's only to help prevent the Waxoyl clogging up the pipes and to help it creep into all the nook and crannies. I'd imagine that adding too much would allow the Waxoyl and white spirit to run out of any drainage holes because it would be way too thin and virtually like water?
Do you (or anyone else for that matter) know if disconnecting the battery does funny things to the MPI? I've heard stories of funny occurances afterwards........ I don't have the standard radio so am not worried about the code, but don't you have to have the ECU reset or something, on reconnection? (Surely not)
I'm not really sure but I can't imagine it'd bother the ECU as such. It might have an effect on the alarm perhaps?
As for the underneath, I've already done this but I used the black gooey Waxoyl stuff which comes in a spray can. Its quite good stuff, gets into the nooks & cranies and I did everywhere from the front headlights/wings to the rear subframe. I was careful not to cover the brake pipes although this would probably give them better protection! Yes make sure you clean off the dirt and any lose rust and also do the car when the weathers dry as you don't want to be trapping moisture onto the car.
Well the Waxoyl stuff in the spray can (regardless of it being black or clear) is still Waxoyl and identical to what's in the larger can anyway.
You're right- it probably would be better to do this in the warmer weather - too late now! Besides, doing it in July would've been pretty wet this year!!!
Have you used the plastic pump pressuring kit?
You should be alright if it's cold outside, so long as you ensure the Waxoyl is warmed up and thinned down correctly.
I haven't actually tried the kit yet (I've used a few spray cans though), but I've heard that you should spray white spirit through the pipes when you're finished to ensure no excess Waxoyl can dry out and cause a blockage.
This book is quite useful (most of it applies to later models too, it was first published around 1994) and it covers rustproofing your Mini in great detail. But they use Dinitrol instead: -
It's available new from here: -
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1899238018/qid%3D1143392839/203-2065884-7642319
Or cheaper on e-Bay usually.
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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Wednesday September 19th, 2007 08:53 am |
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Taffy - brilliant!
How come I've never come across the Somerford Mini's pdf catalogues before! How easy are they to use. Wonder if they do a hard copy?
I'll order the book tonight, too. Cheers.
(By the way, I've heard good things about Dinitrol as a product range. It won't be for me - the minis' already got waxoyl in it and I'll just continue using that for compatibility, but it could be worth a look for anyone contemplating rustproofing from scratch).
It'll take me a few weeks no doubt to get this completed, busy time coming up at work, but I'll let you know on here how I get on (and any problems I encounter - it may help you out when you get round to filling your car).
Once again, many thanks.
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hanlminiman
MCR Member
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Posted: Wednesday September 19th, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Re: battery disconnection on mpi.
My experience is that it does not cause any problems and the Rover Workshop manual always gives the 1st instruction - disconnect the battery then start work. The radio code is the only problem. I isolate my battery every time car is "stored" using FIA switch as alarm and clock tended to run down battery over time.
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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Thursday September 20th, 2007 09:53 am |
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hanlminiman,
Forgive my ignorance - FIA switch. What is it, where is it, what does it do?
Cheers
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Thursday September 20th, 2007 12:13 pm |
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I imagine it's one of those little devices that you fit to the battery terminal and then you can switch off the current. It's also good as a theft deterrent, although not so good if it kills the alarm too?
Some come with a fuse which allows a tiny amount of current to flow, so radio codes (and alarms?) are able to function normally. But if anyone tries to start the car, that fuse will then blow and the battery connection is lost until the switch is reset.
I suppose that fuse could be removed for long term storage or you could just remove the negative/earth lead to isolate it anyway?
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DaveShreeve
Administrator
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Posted: Saturday September 22nd, 2007 11:27 pm |
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taffy1967 wrote: I imagine it's one of those little devices that you fit to the battery terminal and then you can switch off the current. It's also good as a theft deterrent, although not so good if it kills the alarm too?
Similar, but a lot more serious. The car is used for endurance rallying so the switch is externally fitted, more than likely on the scuttle. It allows marshalls, recovery crews, or spectators to completely isolate the battery in case of accident, inversion, or other mishap.
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hawaiianblue
Member
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Posted: Sunday September 23rd, 2007 12:06 pm |
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TBH the pump kit is 'ok'
The aerosols are OK for small areas but they dont have the range for doing sills.
YOu best bet is to get a cheap compressor, one of the small 1.5hp jobs will do and if you look around you can pick them up second hand for about £20.
The get yourself to machinemart, they do a wax injection/underseal gun it comes with an extension hose for getting in the sills. it takes the Shultz cans of waxoyl that Halfords sell, but once one of these is empty you can just refil it from a 5 litre can.
It's a worth while investment, ive seen the compressors new for £60, as waxoyl is idealy done once a year to get a good build of wax in the seams and between panels.
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hawaiianblue
Member
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Posted: Sunday September 23rd, 2007 12:10 pm |
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I imagine it's one of those little devices that you fit to the battery terminal and then you can switch off the current. It's also good as a theft deterrent, although not so good if it kills the alarm too?
Some come with a fuse which allows a tiny amount of current to flow, so radio codes (and alarms?) are able to function normally. But if anyone tries to start the car, that fuse will then blow and the battery connection is lost until the switch is reset.
I suppose that fuse could be removed for long term storage or you could just remove the negative/earth lead to isolate it anyway?
They're called a 'discarnect' they do have a small fuse which is about 10amp, more than enough to run the alarm and keep alive power, but nothing like enought to crank the engine.
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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Monday September 24th, 2007 12:05 pm |
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hawaiianblue, glad to here your experience with the hand pump is okay, as this is what I've got!
I had hoped to put it to the test this weekend as the weather had been dry for a good while! This morning may have put paid to that - what a downpour! Lets hope the rest of the weekend is better!
Out of interest, I've read up the instructions given by Waxoyl, it recommends (on the tin) old waxoyl is diluted with 5 - 10% white spirit to thin it down, and (on the extension probe box) dilute with 10 - 20% white spirit for best coverage! So a 10% mix it is then!
As mentioned earlier in this thread I have heard Dinitrol is the best stuff currently to use - one of the reasons is it doesn't need to be coated every year, it seems to have better 'stickability'. But I'll stick with what I've got and see how I get on with the hand pump for now before investing in a compressor (although if I saw one for £20 I'd probably snap it up!).
As and when I do get the car done I'll try and post some pics (that'll test my 'tinternet abilities!).
Received the book Taffy - a few useful nuggets of info in there! (including some on suspension heights!!!)
Last edited on Monday September 24th, 2007 12:24 pm by Graham Bichard |
taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Monday September 24th, 2007 03:36 pm |
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Great and you're avatar picture does look so much better now too Graham.
I also recently saw that book for sale on e-Bay for 2 quid (£3.00 postage) and it didn't sell. I was tempted to bid for a spare, but I don't think the misses would be too impressed with me filling the house up with doublers at the moment.
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hawaiianblue
Member
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Posted: Monday September 24th, 2007 05:35 pm |
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There are a number of proffesional products similar to waxoyl, dinitrol being one.
The advantage with waxoyl though is that doing it once a year builds a good coating, it also allows it to penetrate between lap joints in panels, where most rust forms.
the dilution for white spirit is only a guide, waxoyl already has white spirit in it, and when it's been siting around for a while the white spirit evaporates off. So you may actually have to add more. This stuff can also get really thick when it's cold so you can add more when it's cold it saves dunking the can in hot water every 10 min or so to stop it cooling.
Another good tip is to put the hoses in hot water just before you use them, it makes them more flexible, especially the extension hose.
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Monday September 24th, 2007 09:30 pm |
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There's also this helpful guide to Waxoyling a vehicle which appeared on a Land Rover forum: -
There's no secret to doing this* and in my opinion certainly no need to spend large wads of cash to get someone else to do it. Over the years I suppose I've gained quite a bit of experience Waxoyling many of the Land Rovers and other modern / classic vehicles that have passed through my hands. So, without further ado (and without wishing to teach anyone to suck eggs) here is……..
Miserableolgit's old family Waxoyling recipe:
Ingredients:
*1x Freshly released ex RAF 127 ambulance.
*5L x Black Waxoyl.
*5L x Standard Waxoyl.
*5L x Degreaser.
*10L x White Spirit.
Equipment
*Compressor.
*Schutz / underseal gun + cavity extension probe + empty Schutz / Panel Guard type canister.
*(or Waxoyl hand applicator / sprayer if you do not have access to the above).
*Ramps or jack & axle stands.
*Large sheet plastic.
*Wire brush.
*Supply of rags / wipes.
Attire
*Old clothes, overalls, hat & face mask - essential for that stylish ‘Well Waxoyled man about town look’
Method:
Preparation:
*Take the 127, or vehicle of your choice, thoroughly clean the chassis, running gear and undersides using a proprietary degreaser and pressure washer. You may need to carry out this operation more than once depending on what state of cleanliness / decay your vehicle is in.
*Allow vehicle to dry thoroughly, I usually allow at least several days. In the meantime if you must use the vehicle avoid soiling it again at all costs!
*Inspect underside of vehicle, remove any loose rust and carry out repairs if required. Luckily the ambulance was in excellent condition so cleaning was all that was needed.
Waxoyl application:
*Choose a warm, dry day. Application is only as messy as you make it so dress accordingly!
*Position vehicle on ramps. Handbrake on, in gear & chock wheels. Alternatively jack one axle and support on axle stands. The latter method allows removal of roadwheels but if this is done I cover the hubs & brakes with a couple of supermarket carrier bags to prevent Waxoyl getting on the brakes.
*Spread plastic sheet under vehicle.
*Using White Spirit thin standard Waxoyl to consistency of something like…. Let’s say salad cream and fill the Schutz / underseal gun (cheap ones available at Machine Mart for just over a tenner http://www.machinemart.co.uk – order code 000512020). Note : You will need an empty Schutz / Panel Guard canister for the gun.
*Fit extension probe & connect gun to compressor.
*Test spray pattern and regulate pressure accordingly.
*Insert the extension probe fully into every conceivable body & chassis cavity and spray whilst pulling and pushing the probe back and forth several times. I don’t think I need to list all the places that need attention but suffice to say that most Land Rover chassis have enough holes to gain access with the probe without the need to drill any new ones although it may take some wiggling to get the probe to run along inside the chassis legs and some holes may require opening up slightly. Things like the bulkhead can be accessed via hinge screws and the open end of the channel underneath. Access to Disco and Range Rover cavities can be done in similar fashion and I’ve found usually without the need to drill any holes. To gain access to the inside of cavities think laterally - use openings behind trim panels, remove lock screws, seatbelt bolts etc etc.
*Mask / cover anything that you do not want to Waxoyl – exhaust, brakes etc - do I really need to list them all?
*Thin black Waxoyl as per above.
*Remove gun extension & fit spray nozzle, load with Waxoyl, test and regulate.
*Get under vehicle and get spraying! I prefer to work from the back to the front and when completed I’ll then swap and if applicable I put the front of the vehicle on ramps / axle stands etc and work back the other way. Work slowly and methodically spraying into every nook and cranny from all angles.
*When you’ve finished …get back under and check again as I’ll guarantee that you will spot areas that you missed.
*Remove all masking & allow the vehicle too ‘drip dry’ and for the White Spirit to evaporate off.
*Start engine and allow to warm. Bear in mind that Waxoyl and White Spirit are highly inflammable so I always take the necessary precaution of standing by with a fire extinguisher etc…. just in case.
*Stand-back and admire your handiwork. Invite the neighbours around to gaze in amazement at your achievement. Have a beer. Take photos and post them together with smug comments on various Land Rover Forums
Notes:
*The same sort of results can often be had with the little Waxoyl spray kits although the job obviously takes longer and is more work due to the physical effort of pumping of the sometimes unreliable equipment.
*I found thinning the Waxoyl to the desired consistency to be far more effective than warming as I found a far more even coating is achieved, coverage is better plus the Waxoyl mists and flows far more readily inside cavities.
*Preparation is the keyword.
*Be warned - the materials involved are highly inflammable so take precautions.
*Remember usual safety procedures with vehicles supported on ramps / using jacks + axle stands & working underneath vehicles.
*I find it good policy to relube things like propshafts etc following external degreasing / power washing.
*I also Waxoyl in and around the engine bay, battery box etc.
This is not a definitive guide! This is the way I’ve done vehicles for a good number of years and I take no responsibility whatsoever if someone or their vehicle comes a cropper for taking my word as gospel.
© Miserableolgit. SCP 2003.
*Waxoyling a vehicle.
I forgot that I'd printed it off for future reference and so I knew exactly where to find it again and here's the link: -
http://archive.difflock.com/discus/messages/5/6498.html?1049382266
Last edited on Monday September 24th, 2007 09:32 pm by taffy1967 |
Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 25th, 2007 09:47 am |
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Thanks for all the advice fellas, I'm almost getting excited at starting (almost - not quite that sad yet!!!)
I should be able to get the car done this weekend (if the weather stays dry) using the workshop at work - I won't have access to a compressor though so I'll still have to use the hand pump, so hopefully I'll be able to tell you of the problems I encounter.
hawaiianblue, I take it you coat your car annually? Do you have a compressor at home? Where did you find it, what maintainance does it require etc? If all goes well on the Mini I'll look at doing my other car myself too, so the investment may be worth it.
Just one thing - I imagine the amount of water would be minimal, but I think I would rather warm the extension probe in an airing cupboard/on a radiator than in hot water, which could then be sprayed out. Just a thought.
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hawaiianblue
Member
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Posted: Tuesday September 25th, 2007 06:47 pm |
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I have a compressor at home, basically the small oil free ones you just use them. Only mainenance they need is dusting off, some have an air filter you wash out when it gets clogged.
The compressors that have an oil sump, it;s just a case of checking the level every so often.
Now it depends on what space you have and how much you have to spend but this one
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-AW30HP-3hp-Direct-Driven-Compressor-564885.htm
Will power just about anything, apart from pro sprayguns and is a bargain for the spec.
Although one of these or similar will be fine for rust proofing/tyre inflation
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-AW10HP-Mini-Air-Compressor-564887.htm
You can normally get similar ones to the latter quite cheaply with a few tools, nailgun etc at the DIY chains.
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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Thursday September 27th, 2007 06:58 am |
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Right, lets see if this works
This is how the scuttle was - doesn't look too bad, thought I'd catch it early.
this is what was found once the screen was taken out. It's not the clearest picture - if this works I'll try and put a better one up.
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Graham Bichard
Member
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Posted: Thursday September 27th, 2007 07:00 am |
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Wow - it works!
I am an internet meister!
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taffy1967
Member
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Posted: Thursday September 27th, 2007 04:37 pm |
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Excellent work Graham and it looks like you got there just in time.
They are buggers to rust and mine had a brand new Heritage scuttle panel fitted some 5 years ago. But a few rust blemishes are now showing and one is on the front edge, close to where it meets the wing.
Still it was laid up for 3 years and it's still waiting to get drowned in Waxoyl.
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