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ca2998
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 14 |
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Posted: Friday April 18th, 2008 10:11 pm |
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haha, ya, I dont think i'm any bolder than anyone else. I'm certaintly not claiming to be, just choose to do things the way I want it done, with my personal projects. My car, my spec, my headache and hangover Whatever that is, I dont know....But I am not comparing, or competing with anyone. Come on by sometime, I'll pour you some canadian whiskey......
Last edited on Friday April 18th, 2008 10:18 pm by ca2998 |
ka2s4
Member
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Posted: Sunday April 20th, 2008 09:25 am |
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So it seems there are rather a few Gold Pavilion Temples driving around out there
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miniless
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 15th, 2008 |
| Location: | Kazakhstan |
| Posts: | 6 |
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Posted: Tuesday April 22nd, 2008 07:02 pm |
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I've just bought a Rover Mini Rio. 39K miles. very pretty in a camp carnival kinda way. As it looks a little bit like Teal Blue, has anyone got a V5 for a Teal Blue Mk3 S? I'd like to increase its value somewhat and stick it on ebay.
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Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 695 |
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Posted: Tuesday April 22nd, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Well it won't be the first time.
Joke,... it's a joke !
There's a lengthy article about Cooper reshells in Mini Mag this month by Graham Robson.He's particularly scathing about works cars too saying that if a car's been reshelled it should be called a replica, it's just carrying the old number plate but the true identity (ie the bit that's got all the ID numbers stuck to it) has been lost. I think that's too simplistic an argument.
Well I have to say when it comes to works car I can barely decipher the difference between a so called works car and a works replica, surely most 'works ' cars have actually been built as pure replicas from boxes of bits and then a registration applied to it. In fact some works replicas are much more accurate than the so called 'works car' they're based on ! ( and have as much right to the reg number in some cases !) That could apply equally to a road car though, whether reshelled or not if the majority of the restored car is NEW !
The best bet is not to worry about it, we all drive the cars we want to drive, if we want to dream our car did a famous rally then why not, who's to say you can't. Some want a car with a documented history from new, others couldn't care less if the history has ominously large gaps in it . Do what you wanna do , it's your car, I doubt Graham Robson even owns a Mini !
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618AOG
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| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Saturday April 26th, 2008 01:51 pm |
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Graham Robson is absolutely correct though - the DJB car has nothing (and I mean NOTHING) in common with the original. It is an absolute fake created 15 years ago when an enterprising soul applied for the V5 and got it.
But if someone is daft enough to pay that kind of money for a car (car, not number plate) which has as much competition history as a Mondeo Minicab then more fool them. What he's actually bought is a Maroon B 1964 850 Mini with loads of nice bits and a famous number plate - it's not even an S shell and I saw that car being built. Stuart Turner is also well known to be very scathing about these 'discovered' works cars.
The same thing happens with Escorts too - very few are really the real thing but clever copies.
"You can take a country Boy, make him look like Elvis, make him sing like Elvis. But he ain't Elvis"
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1963S
Member
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 11:12 am |
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In a recent Classic and Sportscar DJB was advertised as having sold for over a 100K while elsewhere in the same mag CRX90B and OBL45F are reported as going to auction but are expected to only raise about 40K each.
Why the huge disparity?
Cheers, Ian
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Mk 3 S Meister
MCR Member
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 01:02 pm |
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I've just bought a Rover Mini Rio. 39K miles. very pretty in a camp carnival kinda way. As it looks a little bit like Teal Blue, has anyone got a V5 for a Teal Blue Mk3 S? I'd like to increase its value somewhat and stick it on ebay
Putting a Mk 3 S logbook on it is unlikely to increase its value given Mk 3 S prices at the moment.
In a recent Classic and Sportscar DJB was advertised as having sold for over a 100K while elsewhere in the same mag CRX90B and OBL45F are reported as going to auction but are expected to only raise about 40K each.
Why the huge disparity?
Because DJB is a faithful reproduction of the 1965 RAC Rally winner - after the Monte the RAC is one of the biggest events in rallying - especially for us Brits. CRX didn't have much of a competition record and OBL has no significant competition history and neither was to the standard of DJB or some of the works replicas that have appeared at auction recently.
DJB...... is an absolute fake
The definition of fake is to make something that appears genuine, in order to deceive. A reproduction is made to imitate the style of an earlier period.
I think it quite likely that one thing that allowed the car to make its money was the fact that the seller and auctioneers (see the disclaimers attached to any 'works' car description) never sought to obfuscate the history or hide behind clever verbiage when describing the car. DJB therefore = reproduction.
As such, I can't see why the DJB selling price seems to so raise the ire of some people;
1) two people wanted the DJB in the auction
2) two people were able pay for the DJB in the auction
3) two people were prepared to pay for the DJB in the auction
"3)" is what every seller hopes for at an auction.
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mk1
Member
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 01:21 pm |
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Undoubtedly the selling price of DJB did get up a lot of people's noses, but the fact is that it was the sellers absolute honesty about the "heritage" of his incarnation of DJB that helped to sell it. It never had one of those cock and bull "found in someones tool shed in mint condition" stories given to it.
The seller who was no mean slouch in professional motorsport, saw DJB in the mid 60's as a lad and promissed himself that one day he'd be a rally driver. He did after many years of professional international competition became very successful eventually running various successful rally teams. When he knew that the DLB numberplate was available he had a replica of the car he remembers as a lad made, including the numberplate.
DJB was / is a fairly close recreation of the original it is however also totally motorsport legal, something that can't be said about the run of the mill works replicas.
As I say, I am certain that the sellers total honesty regarding the history played a part in the altogether remarkable price he received for what in my book is one of the best works replicas / recreations or whatever you want to call it about.
M.
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618AOG
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 04:59 pm |
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For 100 grand I would want something that Paddy Hopkirk farted in, not a pretty copy and as you've said, that car is a copy no matter how nice it is. That car has zero history - it was probably more significant when it was an 850 Mini.
As for the description, I wonder if the new owner knows exactly what went into that car and how the number plate was aquired?
To me, it's a fake. It is not the real thing. A Hong Kong £15 Rolex watch says 'Rolex' on the dial and the better ones look very much like the real thing - but it's not real. It's the wristbound equivalent of an imaginary friend.
The 100 grand price tag proves that there were two born on that day, nothing more. I mean, what would you do with it? It's probably too nice to use as a rally car.
The direct opposite of that car is the one talked about with the back corner of the roof punched down. That could be straightened out and made presentable and you would have a very proper works Mini, one that did events 40+ years ago. I'd much rather look at that at a Mini event than DJB93B.
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Mk 3 S Meister
MCR Member
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 09:00 pm |
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DJB is still in competiton use - it was on last years Rally of the Tests.
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Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 695 |
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 09:18 pm |
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Who cares what it sold for, or what it's used for, it's not my money or my car. One thing is for sure though and that's the press love a story so don't be surprised to hear that 'DJB' is the real thing, in fact that's happened plenty of times already with this car and others, in fact the auction sales blurb only went as far as describing the car as 'rolled into retirement' which is cute sales spiel for 'totally destroyed'
The previous owner made no bones about it's history though, or should I say lack of it but it's very rare you'll ever hear any owner of a car such as this use the word replica. Which is unfortunate cos I doubt the percieved elitism would exist if they did !
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severnmini
Member
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Posted: Monday April 28th, 2008 10:18 pm |
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 There is a man who lives not far from me who built himself a works replica, and to be honest it looked fantastic.It took him 8 years to get all the parts and assemble the car. I think this kind of dedication to do the job so well is admirable' the value is unimportant on such cars its all about how much you want it.
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618AOG
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 30th, 2008 08:55 pm |
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Mk 3 S Meister wrote:
DJB is still in competiton use - it was on last years Rally of the Tests.
You mean the number plate was used in competition. The real car certainly wasn't. The real car is now a Breville Toaster and a Smeg fridge.
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earlycar
Member
| Joined: | Thursday December 7th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 126 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 30th, 2008 10:48 pm |
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You mean the number plate was used in competition. The real car certainly wasn't.
The car you see in the photo wasnt, but is identical in all respects to the one that wore the plate in the 60s. It was not advertised as anything other than that when it was sold - it is common knowledge that the car is an accurate representation of DJB and no- one was fleeced.
Whats the problem? 
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618AOG
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 02:38 pm |
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earlycar wrote:
You mean the number plate was used in competition. The real car certainly wasn't.
The car you see in the photo wasnt, but is identical in all respects to the one that wore the plate in the 60s. It was not advertised as anything other than that when it was sold - it is common knowledge that the car is an accurate representation of DJB and no- one was fleeced.
Whats the problem?
I don't have a problem - but I haven't paid 100 grand for a number plate!
£100'000 would have bought a real one so I don't quite follow the logic.Last edited on Friday May 2nd, 2008 02:40 pm by 618AOG |
DaveShreeve
Administrator
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Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 03:18 pm |
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I don't think there is, or ever will be, a problem with DJB. The story has been told time and time again so it doesn't take a lot of research to find. The problem comes when the 'original' £15K Mk1 you've just bought turns out to be a bitsa built in an 850 shell.
£100K? It strikes me if you want a period prepared historic rally car to use this year then you'll have to pay it or set your sights lower. Otherwise commit to the long slog of finding all the correct parts to build your own - not likely to be finished this year though!
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earlycar
Member
| Joined: | Thursday December 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 126 |
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Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 03:55 pm |
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Precisely. Not only one of THE most accurately detailed cars, but eminently useable to boot. And with the most signifigant plate ever sported by a works car, bar 33 EJB, it looks almost a steal when you consider a good replica will be (30 - 50K) on the right day.
As for bitsas, its buyer beware - if you go headlong into this sort of purchase without doing your homework, well........
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618AOG
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 09:26 pm |
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earlycar wrote:
And with the most signifigant plate ever sported by a works car, bar 33 EJB,
Apart from GRX5D which has never made 100k yet is a car with some provenance.
About the most flattering description you could say about DJB is that it is the latest in a long line of cars to display that numberplate. But it's not real. It wasn't built from a new Cooper S at Abingdon.
You talk about 15 grand bitsas based on 850 shells with scorn one moment, and look upon a 100k bitsa based on an 850 shell with reverence just because it sports a numberplate.......
What would 618AOG be worth if it were in the UK, fully restored to 1960 Monte Carlo spec? Significant? It was the first ever Mini to score a class win, 1960 Geneva with the Morley twins...and I paid £30 for it.
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DaveShreeve
Administrator
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Posted: Friday May 2nd, 2008 10:29 pm |
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618AOG wrote: earlycar wrote:
You talk about 15 grand bitsas based on 850 shells with scorn one moment, and look upon a 100k bitsa based on an 850 shell with reverence just because it sports a numberplate.......
The scorn wasn't aimed at the car but the vendor. My point was that anybody interested in purchasing DJB should know what they're getting, it's well documented in the public domain. Determining what's happened to the £15K car in it's past is much more difficult. This is made even worse by some members of the vehicle retail trade who have no qualms about purchasing a replica, at a commensurate rate, doubling it's price and 'forgetting' it's a replica when it's sold.
All Coopers are great, and peoples personal interpratations are no problem with me, as long as you've bought what you think you've bought at what you think is a reasonable price. Meeting a fellow enthusiast 6 months after you've bought a car who tells you it was built from parts he bought on Ebay really annoys and reflects badly on the whole hobby.
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AMS
MCR Member
| Joined: | Thursday January 12th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 105 |
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Posted: Saturday May 3rd, 2008 10:17 am |
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I don't have a problem - but I haven't paid 100 grand for a number plate!
£100'000 would have bought a real one so I don't quite follow the logic.
If that the case, why the harping on? Do you not think this subject has been exercised to ad nauseum?
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