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ka2s4
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 10:20 am |
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1963S wrote:
Pardon me if I beg to differ.
Once you replace your Cooper's body with that from an 850 you have an 850 with a replacement engine, brakes etc etc.
I would say you are correct, but ONLY if you retain the ID from the 850 'shell.
Don't forget that in the UK it is easier to re shell because the Chassis plate is only held on with 2 screws, and in Aussie there are chassis and body numbers stamped into the various parts.
See thread titled Mk1 Coper S
So in Australia you would have to move various panels like the rad cowl and the firewall in order to be correct, and in the UK you would only need to move the body number and F numbers, that are on plates, and not stamped into panels like in Aussie.
And where does this leave cars that have had a brand new replacement 'shell when they were a few years old as a result of an accident?
I have a friend who has a car like this, and he even has the receipt for the 'shell!
In my opinion it is just a car, with a (very large) replacement part.
So now that we can't buy 'shells from BMC anymore, we have to get them from 850 minis.
And if the donor shell is the same year, and all the ID is moved over, i can't see a problem.
A Cooper 'shell is just a modified 850 shell anyway, it's not as if you are re sheling an MGA into a MGB or anything!
It all depends on what, in your opinion constitutes a cars 'soul' Is it the 'shell? Is it the papers and ID tags?
Is it the original trim etc?
I would say that if you are in possession of the papers and ID tags then you have the 'licence' to re build that car, it's just that the finished article might be lacking in soul.
J
Minorparts, I have just read your post, and realise i have repeated much of what you said.Last edited on Tuesday April 8th, 2008 10:32 am by ka2s4 |
1963S
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 11:20 am |
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Glen Ponder wrote:
Ian with respect ..what a load of cobblers !
.......It's a shame there's such a stigma about reshelling, if there wasn't there'd be no need for sellers to be 'conservative with the truth' ! .....
I guess this is a good example that vindicates my view. Not only to people do it but they know that possible buyers mightn't like it so they're happy to lie about their car's history in order to deceive others. Why? So they can make more money probably - or maybe its just status points.
And sorry Mk I but "prefectly respectable (all be it slightly legally dubious)"??? Well what can I say... Maybe that could be a new sales line "respectable restoration" Mini magazines could add it to their glossary..."RR = not genuine". Something like the 1970 Sportspacks they have in the US. Illegal but widely accepted. Nothing wrong as long as all the parties know what's going on. I wonder how many sellers offer a money back guarantee when/if the buyer detects the fraud and finds it unacceptable??
Re-read my story... my friend did absolutely nothing wrong in doing what you all advocate (a re-shell) and he recieved what he considered fair value for his effort. The problem occurred when the unscrupulous second party cashed in on the S premium at the expense of the final buyer.
That's what I object to.
But this is the unkindest cut of all.."but this whole 'originality' snobbery is ruining clubs like the MCR". My biggest argument against the originallity nazis is that, in many cases, they're being total hypocrites. Their original S in too many cases consists of an 850 body with mechanicals sourced from a dozen cars, a Newton Commercial interior....
I have a "fairly" original 1071 but boy was it ratty. Which is why I chose to fit comfy seats, a 1275 engine, adjustable suspension etc etc. Why? Because I could and I like it that way. Maybe one day I'll rebuild the 1071 engine, repaint the body the right colour refurbish and refit the suspension etc.
Gee this is a dry argument - anyone for a pint.
Cheers, Ian
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1963S
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 11:20 am |
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Once is probably enough  Last edited on Tuesday April 8th, 2008 11:50 am by 1963S |
Glen Ponder
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 12:24 pm |
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1963S wrote: my friend did absolutely nothing wrong in doing what you all advocate (a re-shell) and he recieved what he considered fair value for his effort. The problem occurred when the unscrupulous second party cashed in on the S premium at the expense of the final buyer.
That's what I object to.
Well we can agree to agree on that at least !  We can't account for unscrupulous sellers. Anyone who wishes to spend a substantial amount of cash on an "original" (in your book not reshelled ) car should do his homework before parting with the cash, which is where we come in quite handy.If he doesn't he's only himself to blame. There's a very expensive Mk1 for sale at the moment with a dealer that was built from a log book and nothing more.It's a beautiful car rebuilt to a high standard using original parts( ie not repro), to original spec (rolls eyes) and cost a bomb to build . The eventual buyer of the car may not give a hoot that it's been built from 'nowt' because it's such a rare and lovely car and he just wants to drive and enjoy it, on the other hand he may but not bother to do his homework, not ask to see it's history (which it can't possibly have !) and be sold a pup in his eyes. However I see little difference between that car and one rebuilt from an original project where 90% of the car has been thrown away during restoration. Discuss.... Anyway bugger 'originality' , I'm off to reshell my Cooper S into this so I can get to work  Last edited on Tuesday April 8th, 2008 01:04 pm by Glen Ponder |
minorparts
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 02:40 pm |
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I suppose it all depends on what you want. They are only cars after all but speaking for myself, I like an old car to have a bit of history - a bit of 'patina' as the antique dealers say and to have retained as much of the original car as possible. As we all know, this is particularly difficult with such cars as the Cooper S. When I was looking for a Mk1 I did look at a couple of completely rebuilt cars and found them lacking something. Yes, they looked like new, but that was the problem. They also had no checkable 'history', no 'soul' if you like, and the sellers were evasive. Lovely looking cars if that's what you want, but re-creations. Eventually I found the car I have now which was basically in very sound original condition but displaying wear and tear, battle scars etc and having a traceable known past. It needed some restoration but at least I'll know what is under all the paint and that is worth something to me. It probably won't have cost much less than buying one of those 'rebuilt' cars in the first place but it will be what I want from an old Mini Cooper.
Anyone buying one of these cars does need to do their homework as Glen says, and make sure it is the car for them. Whoever buys the car he mentions will hopefully be pleased with it and will enjoy it. I'll also be happy to see it and admire it on the road or at a show. I just prefer to own something more authentic for myself. Perhaps the car Glen knows will acquire that authenticity or patina as the years go on!
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minorparts
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 02:42 pm |
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P.S. I love the snow plough!! Hope no original Coopers died or were injured in its creation !
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android
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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Jesus only with Coopers do we get all this pandemonium about reshelling cars. For Pete's sake they are selling heritage MGB/Midget bodyshells by the bucketload and no-one gives a t*ss about the id's being swapped on them. I don't understand what all the fuss is about.  . If you can't live with the guilt,then spend squillions welding up your basket case (M-Machine complete floor comes in at £500,that's just for starters) just don't expect anyone to think you're a hero for doing it. Think I'll go down the pub and spend mine ....
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earlycar
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 05:32 pm |
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| Here here. A Cooper s is for throwing around back roads, at naughty speeds - just like they were in period. Probably why so few have their origianl shell. But who cares - get your boot down man, by the time the concours grannys get their word in you will be but a dot on the horizon!
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minorparts
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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Android, you seem to miss the point. A Heritage shell is a brand new and available replacement part so no "swapping" of an ID goes on and no deception - in fact the seller of such a car will generally advertise it as such and get a higher price for it. The car is rebuilt into a brand new shell which suits many people. Unfortunately new shells are not available for older Minis so we either have to repair the existing one or use the shell from another Mini which had its own ID already....Doing this doesn't increase the number of Minis does it because that good secondhand bodyshell could generally be restored as the car it already was.
The reshelling debate does not only exist in the Cooper world I can assure you. It also exists with all the sporting Ford models for example. I have no strong views about the rights and wrongs of it but was simply pointing out that although the practice is widespead the legal situation is really no different in this country to Australia.
For the record, I am far from a concours man but am glad that some people are, as their cars are an important part of the broad church of Mini owners. I agree that Minis are here to be enjoyed and driven the way they were intended. They are also a classless car and truly all things to all men. I do not think that anyone here would try to impose their own ideas onto other people's cars, the variety of which makes Mini events so much fun!
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earlycar
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 09:25 pm |
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| What if a Heritage Mk1 shell WAS available? Then what? Last edited on Tuesday April 8th, 2008 09:25 pm by earlycar |
ca2998
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| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 9th, 2008 01:26 am |
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minorparts - I totally agree with you on the 'patina'. For me as well I like a car that show's signs of life and history, charecter, personality.
I'm not into the concourse deal, where the cars look new. In fact I think many of them look too new, and not 'original' at all.
I prefer original interiors that show wear and a little sagging, to bright new Newton Commercial stuff. Orginal paint with nicks, to paint that is ten times better quality than the original, and sometimes looks slighty odd.
I spotted a mk1 Cooper locally in a car park. I dont know what this car's deal was, but it was very original, what wasn't appeared to be period and suited the car equally. Original Almond Green/OEW, orginal green gray interior, seat bases a little worn and flattened(although nice), and original paint with a bit of fading and minor nicks. This car was awesome, the sliders were open and I peeked in, the interior smelled period! and the worn spots and used appearance just made this car even sweeter. It was parked in a little sea side town and I felt like I was in the 60's for a moment. I regret not waiting for the owner to come back to find out about the car, but I had to leave.
Thats what I strive for with my project's. I dont plan to enter any concourse shows, my car would not be suited and thats what I want. That's just me however.
Last edited on Wednesday April 9th, 2008 01:35 am by ca2998 |
minorparts
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Posted: Wednesday April 9th, 2008 07:32 am |
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If a Heritage shell was available, and used in a rebuild, no problem - a brand new part is simply replacing an old, worn out one. The finished car perhaps couldn't claim to be 'original' but what old Mini Cooper is? A car with a new shell would be MORE attractive to some people and not to others, which is fine. It depends on what you want. The legal/fraud/ringing ID arguments would not apply. A secondhand shell is different in that it has or has had an identity already and legally that identity stays with it.
I'm not suggesting that it doesn't go on, or even that it shouldn't go on, just that, as Ian and Mark Mk1 have already pointed out, It is legally "dubious" to say the least because a bodyshell previously used and having had a chassis plate attached is regarded as a car.
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ka2s4
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Posted: Wednesday April 9th, 2008 08:52 am |
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Hi Ian,
Below is your quote:
Re-read my story... my friend did absolutely nothing wrong in doing what you all advocate (a re-shell) and he recieved what he considered fair value for his effort. The problem occurred when the unscrupulous second party cashed in on the S premium at the expense of the final buyer.
We need to make an important distinction here, you say that your mate did a re-shell
It sounds to me as if he made a replica.
A re-shell is when all your Cooper stuff AND the ID goes onto another 'shell
A replica is when you put cooper stuff on an 850 with 850 ID.
So what was it that he did?
James.Last edited on Wednesday April 9th, 2008 08:53 am by ka2s4 |
1963S
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Posted: Friday April 11th, 2008 09:43 am |
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you're right. It probably was a replica in that while it had S badges etc. I don't thing he was too fussed about numbers as he was really only practicing bodywork/painting etc for his S restoration.
Don't forget Oz cars have different ID systems to UK cars. Some don't have any plates just numbers stamped on the shell.
It was some time ago
Cheers, Ian
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severnmini
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Posted: Friday April 11th, 2008 03:36 pm |
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1963S
Member
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Posted: Monday April 14th, 2008 12:22 pm |
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That's my beef... I think I'd much preferr a Cobra replica then the real thing...but if there was a nice 250LM going....
I have to admit to heresy though. A few years ago I lucked in and a nice lady gave me a Traveller body - so I reshelled the S.
I suppose that's not really true... but if you've ever tried to fit a hay bale in a Mini saloon you'll wondefr why Travellers are so few.
So basically I have a 1071 with a MkII engine and gearbox, a Traveller body and a few aftermarket bits and bobs where necesary.
Meanwhile some of the 1071 waits in the shed... I've often thought of selling - but my Daughter would kill me.
Cheers, Ian
C
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mk1
Member
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Posted: Monday April 14th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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"So basically I have a 1071 with a MkII engine and gearbox, a Traveller body and a few aftermarket bits and bobs where necesary."
Basically you have a bag of bits on a Cooper S logbook. You have in someones opinion no doubt created a fake sack of cack :-) (ho, ho, ho)
Just as a matter of interest while you are so obviously taking the moral high ground, how do you reconcile having a 1071S logbook on a Traveller shell as far as I am aware there was never a 1071 Cooper S Traveller. This would cause far more problems regarding legality in the UK than reshelling your 1071 into a similar year & spec shell. I'm not saying what you have done is wrong, I'm just trying to illustrate that condemning someone out of hand is never an easy position to take.
I'm not looking for a fight, I don't have a strong opinion either way on this, but your moral absolutism does raise a few problems for you driving a reshelled car, or at least it shoiuld do.
Each to their own is what I say, I'm off into my Franken shed to create another monster :-)
M.
Last edited on Monday April 14th, 2008 04:08 pm by mk1 |
mk1coopers
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Posted: Monday April 14th, 2008 08:32 pm |
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masnarda
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Posted: Monday April 14th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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| indeed
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Safety_Fast
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Posted: Monday April 14th, 2008 10:10 pm |
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What an emotive subject. This and works 'replicas', which every man and his dog seem to have a view on (why does Mr Young insist on not only publishing a letter in the magazine on the subject, but also the response, from a chap who brings nothing new to the table and by replying makes the MCR look soooo guilty and on the offensive) seem to be coming close to defining the club! I notice even Graham Robson has a dig in this months 'minimag' at reshells / replicas / fakes.
If one starts nit picking, the average 'concours' restoration of a Mk1 - 3 Mini in the country relies on throwing masses of the original parts away. Obviously not the major components, but how many of us reuse wheel cylinders, all the chromework etc, master cylinders etc. The temptation is to replace with NOS, as these are only service parts, but then as other bits become available you buy those, and before you know it you are reassembling the car with all boxed bits and the only original items are the
shell, engine and subframe if you are very lucky. So where DOES one stop?
Personally i feel the reshell debate will continue for one reason, and that is so folk can knock others cars.
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however as others have stated you can not buy a new shell, so you either keep the roof and scrap the rest as mini machine or re shell.I personally love a nice used mini if i spent the kind of money some people do i would be scared to drive it and to me that is what they are for.