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ca2998
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 14 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 01:29 am |
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Hey everyone, I'm new to the site.....happy I found a place that has people knowledgeable about early Cooper's/ Cooper S's.
I've had a few mk1 project cars over the years, a 997 cooper and a 998, and after some time of having nothing, I have bumped into someone once again. I've only heard of the car as of yet, but understand what it is. It's a mk1 Cooper 998 I assume, I'm not sure of the year yet, just mk1. It's tartan red/black, and said to be a complete car. Gold brocade interior etc is there as orginal. Apparently it's been sitting in it's current spot for around 20 years. Talking to someone about the car, he said the shell is completely rusted, in fact he said rust comes up the side of the body quite a way's. As I said, I have not seen it, so I cant say for sure.
Anyhow, as it sit's it sounds complete, with original registration. The car is not up for sale or anything, but I can get my hands on it.
My question to you guy's is, what are your opinions on a donar shell replacing the Cooper's original? Im not talking throwing it's engine, front brakes and a few other bits with the CA2/KA2 paper's into another shell/car and calling it an original, I mean using just the bare bones stripped donar shell(in need of many panels anyhow) as a replacement to the original, and restoring the car as per original and complete.
I suppose I'm what you call an anal purrist, and wherever possible, regardless of cost or time reasons, would keep the cars original shell. I have no problem taking this Cooper on, and understand fully what a project of this size entails.
I would like to know however, how some of you view this subject. I understand how many original examples out there have had a donar shell during restoration, and sometimes it cannot be helped.
I should add, myself and the Cooper are located in Canada, so finding a genuine and true mk1 Cooper/S is no easy task.
Thanks!
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Gray
MCR Member
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Posted: Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 08:20 am |
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| If it is as original as it seems then I would try to reuse the shell, if your going to have to do work on a replacement shell I would do that bit extra on the original, mini-machine do some great panels which save a great deal of effort. I know the shipping of the panels will not come cheap but in for a penny as the say. Oh and welcome to the forum. Gray Last edited on Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 08:21 am by Gray |
minorparts
Member
| Joined: | Friday March 23rd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 557 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 09:49 am |
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I can only agree with what Gray has already said: welcome to the forum, and reshell IF there is no other alternative. I personally would rather see the car back on the road with another shell than never see it back on the road at all, but it is amazing what CAN be done. If you use the shell from another car, then THAT car never sees the road again.....
IF you decide a re-shell is the answer, then try to find a shell of the correct age/specification and swap every part that you can from the original body. Reshelling has gone on since almost day one and is not a sin as long as you're open about it.
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 461 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 07:24 pm |
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Welcome to the forum.
Have a look at this topic with earlier opinions on the matter
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Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 695 |
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Posted: Wednesday April 2nd, 2008 10:17 pm |
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| Personally I don't see the merit in spending an arm and two legs patching up a rot-box ( which is what yours sounds like) in order to proclaim it as the 'original' shell when most of it's new metal when it's finished ! . The re-shelling of Coopers is far more common than most think, no big deal, many would have been broken for parts long ago if they hadn't been reshelled but preferable to use the right period donor shell if you can .
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ca2998
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 14 |
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Posted: Thursday April 3rd, 2008 01:38 am |
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Thanks guys. Obviously I have to see it first, but we'll see. I've been known to take on some pretty ambitious projects, and rust doesn't seem to scare me like it does some other people. Nor does seeing a bodyshell on a rotiserie missing half it's panels, esspecially with all the panels that are available.
Speaking for myself only here, I would choose to spend many more hours and money on panel work to the original shell. Even in the case of the shell having most panels replaced, in my opinion thats still the car's original shell, that was re-worked, and not replaced, regardless of how much metal is original.
I will have to see the car obviously before I know. However, it is a genuine MK1 Cooper that was not messed with. It's a complete car, sounds like it was parked as one something like 20 years ago, and not be touched since. Original Tartan red/Black, complete gold brocade interior, original engine etc. You dont find them like that very often anymore. At this point I have to wait for the car to be collected, and all that stuff sorted.
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Gray
MCR Member
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Posted: Thursday April 3rd, 2008 07:36 am |
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| Good luck with the project. At least by sticking with the original shell you will not have people saying to you that it is OK to do so as long as your up front about it, which surely is another way of saying to you it has been devalued in some way if your having to hide the truth. Post some pictures when it arrives.
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618AOG
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday March 14th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 182 |
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Posted: Thursday April 3rd, 2008 08:55 pm |
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I would reshell it. It sounds absolutely knackered. It's all very well banging on about originality blah blah blah but the ones saying 'keep the original shell' are not paying the bills. A 998 Cooper is not a car of immense value - somewhere around the cost of a new Kia Picanto. To fully rebuild a knackered shell and paint it costs around £6000.
I don't have a problem with reshells, and no issues at all with cars built from a logbook, a restored 850 shell and all the relevant bits. I would far rather see a really nice logbook rebuild on the road and not sat in an envelope in a desk drawer.
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Gray
MCR Member
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Posted: Thursday April 3rd, 2008 10:50 pm |
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£6k to rebuild perhaps if shopped out, if your up to the job as you sound nearer £2k if you don't put a price on your time, value is in the eye of the beholder at the end of the day.Rebuild not recreate!!
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Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 695 |
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Posted: Thursday April 3rd, 2008 11:36 pm |
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At the end of the day the answer to the original question is ..do what YOU want to do !  Which is restoring the original shell by the sound of it, even if there's only the roof left, which begs the question : Why bother canvassing opinion in the first place ? 
Who cares as long as you have fun. 
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ca2998
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 14 |
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Posted: Friday April 4th, 2008 01:57 am |
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Untimatey I will do what I want to do. I'm not looking for someone to tell me how a car is going to restored and built. However, I am curious to know opinions of those in the Cooper/Cooper S cirlce. I know there has been controversy over this topic before many of times, with many different car's and enthusiast's, and I enjoy hearing other peoples opinions.
As I said, I will have to inspect the car's shell, and evaluate it's condition, structural integrity etc. Who know's, the shell could crumble upon movement, in such a case, I think the shell's fate is obvious. If the shell is rigid enough in certain area's, and I feel I can take it on, I know route I feel should be taken in that situation as well.
Maybe I should explain, not very many people understand my passion and enthusiasm for the original mk1 Cooper and Cooper S. I know I am prepared to go to greater lenght's with these car's than perhaps the next guy, and my intrest run's deeper than alot of folk's, however I am confident most, if not all people on this forum understand. When I come across old basket case Cooper's(have not found an S yet) I feel obligated to that car, and what happens with it, even though I may never sell it.
All this reminds me of a car I stumbled upon around 2002. I heard rumors of a mk1 Cooper, all original etc etc, that had been stood for many years. I suppose I eventually tracked it down as I bought it. It was a 1967 Austin Cooper, Almond Green/OEW. It was a very complete, very original car. In fact, I beleive someone e-mailed me from this web site asking me for the VIN, whitch I supplied. They wrote me back telling me the details of the car, build date, chasis/engine #'s etc, noting it should have the double skinned bootlid as it did etc. The only thing non original on it was the steering wheel, and a period wooden shiff knob. When I saw the car, it was sitting in a shop corner covered in thick dust and untouched for years. When we moved the car onto the trailer, it was obvious how rusty the body was, it was basicly crumbling in some area's. I had it stored in a garage for a while trying to decide what to do with it, and eventually decided at that time it was too much. Found a very serious buyer, and upon him collecting the car, the shell ..well it was just very bad, scared off the buyer and the car was mine for a while longer. Eventually I dont beleive I had a choice but to break it down. I gutted the shell, drivetrain, everything, the shell looked pitifull after it was stripped. Very sad really. The car was boxed and stored, and eventually sold on to a very nice man that wanted to restore it obviously using a donar shell. It was all there and ready. The car and doucuments minus the shell was off to be restored and introduced to the new metal box in whitch would hold it all together. To this day I regret selling it, and wish I had stored it in some corner somewhere and restored it myself, but at that time was the right thing to do.
Ahhhh..If I had a time machine and could get my hands on some of the stuff and cars I have had....That would be an intresting thread now wouldn't it. lol...
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masnarda
Member
| Joined: | Sunday January 7th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 155 |
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Posted: Friday April 4th, 2008 05:19 pm |
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I can understand both sides of the story. But I recently also stumbled across a 64 shell which was in really, really, really great nick. I decided to buy it as a donor for a re shell, but that is because i had the chance to do it, otherwise who knows.
ps see my other thread for pictures of the shell
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Friday April 4th, 2008 06:06 pm |
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If the shell is saveable and it is definately the original then save it. If it's not saveable then the only answer is to reshell, as a significant amount of Cooper's and S's have already had done so. If the shell is not the original then there's no point in struggling to save the shell if another, much better one is available.
Personally I'd rather keep the original shell if possible but there is a point when you have to be realistic.
As mentioned by other people, if you do reshell then make sure it's the same or as close to the original shell as you can get.
Good luck with it whatever you do and don't forget to post up a couple of pictures of it. We love 'as found' pictures here, even if the Mini magazines don't !
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1963S
Member
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Posted: Monday April 7th, 2008 11:09 am |
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Pardon me if I beg to differ.
Once you replace your Cooper's body with that from an 850 you have an 850 with a replacement engine, brakes etc etc.
Here in Oz its illegal to alter a car's identity - ie apply non original numbers etc. There's nothing wrong with fitting Cooper bits to your 850 including badges etc. But, its still an 850.
Should you later choose to offer your "Cooper" (as opposed to modified 850)for sale you are into fraud.
We had such a case a few years ago. One of our club memebers built up a very convincing S replica using an Oz Deluxe body and some spare bits he'd accumulated for his S rebuild (basically as a reheasal for his S restoration). When completed he sold the car, fully disclosing its history. The buyer was less reputable and passed on the "genuine" S at a considerable profit. The new owner had a few questions about his car and was (entirely unwittingly) referred to the original builder; an interesting conversation ensued.
Eventually he was awarded considerable compensation (from the middleman) at the resulting court case.
Replicas are not originals no matter how much you may choose to dress it up.
The art world has the concept of provenance. Maybe its something we should consider.
Good luck, Ian
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mk1
Member
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Posted: Monday April 7th, 2008 03:06 pm |
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Ian,
Your opinion is interesting and of course also valid. It does not however alter the fact that as far as a hell of a lot of Mini oficionados are concerned reshelling is seen as a prefectly respectable (all be it slightly legally dubious) option to keep an otherwise knackered Cooper or S on the road. If everyone in the Cooper world took your admirably high moral stand on the matter then there would be about 4 Cooper S's of any type in the UK. There are thankfully considerably more than that.
Of course many Cooper fans dream of a matching number Cooper S with a full documented history from the day it was registered to the day they bought it, these cars are however almost impossible to find anywhere at any price, and don't even get me started on "Works" cars :-)
You are of course legally correct (even here in the UK, more or less) but the fact is that MOST (not all) Cooper fans would rather see a 1963 1071 Cooper S reshelled into a good 1963 Mini shell that has been suitably modified than see it consigned to the scrap heap of history.
M.
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Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 695 |
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Posted: Monday April 7th, 2008 03:12 pm |
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Ian with respect ..what a load of cobblers !
The body shell is merely a replaceable part of the entire vehicle, as are the bootlid bonnet and doors, engine,subframes, glass, chrome, trim etc etc ... Are you telling me a restored car which has had replacement bootlid , bonnet and doors, floors, boot floors, inner and outer sills, front panel, wings and A panels etc, not to mention new trim, electrics, subframes, brakes, chrome ... is still the original vehicle ?!! That's ludicrous ! That would be less of an original car than the '65 Cooper S I sold last year which had a replacement shell but otherwise the rest of it was 100 % original ! You work it out ?
It's an issue of perception, you percieve that the use of a donor bodyshell is basically a different car, and I don't. You think a restored original shell with 90% new metal is an 'original' car and I just can't see it. Yes I've always said if you reshell you should be upfront about it (which few are), not cos it devalues the car in my eyes but just because telling porkies isn't the way to carry on. It's a shame there's such a stigma about reshelling, if there wasn't there'd be no need for sellers to be 'conservative with the truth' ! It's worth remembering that if none of these old Coopers had been reshelled over the years (most are over here ! ) there'd be a lot of empty green fields at Mini shows like Beaulieu wouldn't there ?!
At the end of the day you believe what you want to believe and allow others to do the same, but this whole 'originality' snobbery is ruining clubs like the MCR, even to the point where few take their cars along to shows anymore, and most will onlyrestore to the Heritage Certificate spec . I'm lucky I've got an original unwelded Mk1 'S' and a nice honest 'S' replica and both still get the adrenaline going which is what it's all about, not politics !
Last edited on Monday April 7th, 2008 03:13 pm by Glen Ponder |
mk1coopers
MCR Member
| Joined: | Wednesday September 12th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 125 |
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Posted: Monday April 7th, 2008 07:53 pm |
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| Here's a question for you all, why does it seem that 'normal' mini (shells) seem to survive in better condition than Coopers / 'S's, is it just that there were more made so the survival rate is higher as a percentage?, also to add to the debate, where are we drawing the line?, does a log book that has none of the original parts with it count as a reshell?, or is it a recreation?
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Monday April 7th, 2008 08:35 pm |
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I guess there were an awful lot more standard Mini's made and were less likely to be thrashed to death. A lot of the decent Mk1's around now seem to be those with one or two owners and have been garaged for most of their lives.
I wonder if they do actually have a better survival rate, pro-rata, than the Cooper/S models?? It would be difficult to tell for sure seeing as many Cooper's have acquired an 850 shell, thus reducing the numbers of 850's surviving.
I'd say a log-book with no 'original' parts is a recreation. A reshell is where the original car exists but the owner decides for whatever reason to change the shell. A replica is where a car does exist and it is altered to replicate another model.
That's my thoughts anyway. I'm sure someone will disagree on this questionable subject
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ca2998
Member
| Joined: | Tuesday April 1st, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 14 |
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 04:12 am |
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It seems as though there are more surving 850 shells around, due to the nature of the Cooper/S. Cooper's and S's were bought up for race cars, shell's hacked up taking panels off to lighten them, smashed up, rolled, discarded etc...
Where as maybe 850's werent bought up for motorsport as much. Why start with one, when you could have started with Cooper's and S's. How many of these car's were bought up 25 or 30 years ago, their interiors thrown into a bin for some bucket seat's , front end's hacked off for fiberglass, wheels well's cut...whatever.
I see them for sale from time to time, you can see that the car is an original Cooper or S, original bodyshell remaining, but the car has very little remaining original, as some dude hacked the thing up in 1978 to go racing and cruise the beaches with his orange paintwork and fiberglass bucket seats.
On the topic of "re-building" a car from a V5 or log book, I think thats's rediculous. A proper re-shell is one thing, but building a car from paperwork is nuts. That car is long gone, the paperwork is for that car......without that car, the paperwork is just paper and ink, that belonged to a car, whitch is no longer............. un-less of course it still exist's whitch makes this even more rediculous.
In the case where a re-shell is required, me personally, I like to see the job done properly. Using a bare steel shell of simular vintage. These 're-shelled' cars that you see, seem as though the engine/tranny/brakes and Paperwork were swapped into a completely different car. Thats a joke to me.
If I reshell, the donar shell I select will come into the project as bare steel shell, no bits no nothing. The project car is complete, everything is there. Just a bare metal replacement shell would be required. In fact I would keep the car's original shell, even if I never intended to sell the car, I would just like to keep it. Perhaps just to see where the project started. If I were ever to sell the car though, I'd like to show any potential buyers the car's original shell, and why is was replaced.
I know in any case it's nice to see an original mk1 just brought back to the road, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't the least bit anal about originality and details with my projects. I'm sure many of you here can agree with me on that, judging by some of the post's on this forum. If I simply wanted to have fun in a mini deatails and originality not important, be it any MK, it would be a whole lot simpler. But I know myself, my intrest and enthusiasm for the mk1 Cooper and Cooper S is a little more complicated than that.
Last edited on Tuesday April 8th, 2008 04:28 am by ca2998 |
minorparts
Member
| Joined: | Friday March 23rd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 557 |
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Posted: Tuesday April 8th, 2008 10:08 am |
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Ian's point about the law in Australia is just as valid here in the UK. When these cars were new, if the bodyshell was deemed too badly damaged to repair, a brand new shell could be obtained and was regarded as a replacement part. the repaired car therefore kept its original identity. It would be almost impossible to find an unused Mk1 shell now of course so the only option is to use a secondhand one from another car. However, a used bodyshell already carries an identity. That is what makes fitting another shell quite different to fitting another bonnet/door/boot etc. which is the norm in a major restoration. It is the shell that the identity of a car is fitted to and so a secondhand shell already has the identity of another car. It therefore follows that THAT car will then be lost forever... One thing that differs between UK and Australian Mk1s is that the UK ones do not seem (as far as I know) to have the chassis number stamped into the shell and simply rely on a plate held on with self tapping screws!
I am not taking the moral high ground and I do not think that Ian was either. We all create what we choose from the parts we have around us and if I had a completely rotten Cooper S and a good 850 shell I too would probably build a car from them. I think we also have to be honest though and admit that it is largely about money. A restored Cooper or S is worth a lot more than an 850.
As has already been discussed, The Cooper and S suffered from accident damage both on the roads and in motorsport and if owners had never re-shelled them , few would now be left. I'm not sure that this would mean that Mini shows would be less well attended because the good bodyshells that people used to rebuild Coopers would perhaps have stayed as good 850s.....a car which is getting more rare by the day! There are of course only so many good shells to go round and demand is high.
Another more sinister thought regarding good shells is this. I know several Mk1 owners whose treasured cars have been stolen over the last few years and an attempt was made to steal my own 998 Cooper a few years ago. What happens to these cars? Some are perhaps exported. Some maybe live on under another ID. Others are probably broken for valuable parts. What happened to the shells? Once parts have changed hands a time or two it is almost impossible to know their origins.
I personally don't have any problem with reshelled cars and know that many Coopers have been reshelled. However, that is what they are - Coopers rebuilt using the body of ANOTHER car. I do feel that a car restored around the original shell - even if many parts of it have been renewed, can be more correctly regarded as an 'original' car restored simply because its body was not previously ANOTHER car. And....because the owner/restorer DIDN'T use a donor shell, the shell he didn't use can be restored by someone else as the mini it was and join us all on the road and/or at the shows! Surely if a cars original shell can be repaired properly that is the better option?
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