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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Saturday May 5th, 2007 09:23 am |
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In response to the discussion on the 'Questionable Ebay Cars' topic, I wanted to share two stories on whether or not to reshell a car.
Story 1: Back in 1996, I bought a 1964 Cooper S which included all of essential bits but no shell as the car had suffered a serious crash back in the early 1970's. Since it has a very interesting history, it is worthwile to restore the car but obviously there is the problem of having no shell. So, I first thought, let's find a good 850 shell and use that. Later, I decided that the history of the car urges the use of an original shell. I wanted it to be a genuine S or a converted Cooper shell. Then, I found a 1965 Cooper on Ebay France, which was genuine and in reasonably good condition for its age (yes, it really was genuine and 99% complete!). So, I bought that (even after the auction ended because somehow it didn't sell...) as a donor for my S. But, having this 1965 Cooper now for a few years, I have again changed my mind as this 1965 Cooper is too original and non-bodged to not restore it as well. Hence, I am back to square one with no shell for my S. After 11 years of restoration (and spending millions to find those genuine NOS bits), I still have no body but (almost) all the parts to go on it. Since I really want to now finally make some serious progress and since finding an original S shell is rather impossible, I reluctanly concluded that the only option is converting a good 850 shell (though it should still be of exactly the same period to get the details right), preferably one without much further parts on the it or one without V5 such that restoring this 850 as well makes no sense.
Story 2: I also own a 1967 Mk II Cooper. This car is original and with its original shell (though it was only for about 40% complete when I bought it). But, the shell was in a extremely bad condition. To illustrate this: the rear subframe was welded to some plate that was welded over another plate, which was again welded to another bigger plate that was finaly welded to what remained of the original shell. Since I started restoring this car, I had about 70% of the shell replaced with new panels, including the toe board and front X member. So, in the end, only about 25% of the shell is still the original 1967 metal and it cost more to restore that shell than to buy a good 850 donor or even one of those Heritage shells. So, we have now a 25% genuine shell for a rediculus amount of money together with 25% of the original parts of the car (most of what was with the car when I bought it was really scrap). For the rest, I have been able to source all the essential bits to complete it.
My experience with restoring Coopers and Ss (and that not only covers to the two above but also some for other Mini enthausiast) is that a completely genuine and 100% original Cooper or S basically does not exist. So, to answer the question: I simply don't know but it might be the only option... Any comments?
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kendallsteve
Member
| Joined: | Wednesday May 31st, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 72 |
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Posted: Saturday May 5th, 2007 05:29 pm |
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Hello Mini4Ever  Is that a Dutch name? If you want to reshell a Cooper or S you need to find an unwanted 850 of the same vintage and with the same essential body features such as seat belt mounting points etc. The Cooper shells were all converted from 850s anyway at Longbridge so they all have the hole in the toeboard for a magic wand but it is blanked off. Our local mini resto shop uses a template from an original car to make the hole for the remote gearchange and when they have finished a shell (at considerable cost), you wouldnt even guess it wasnt a brand new one, let alone not a Cooper. The other little details such as extra black vinyl and chrome are easy enough. The hardest part perhaps is ignoring all the purists and whingers who will tell you that you should be shot for destroying a poor innocent 850, and that any reshell, no matter how well done is a "phoney" car. I say  to them all. Get on with it and good luck. Steve (mini nutcase)Last edited on Saturday May 5th, 2007 05:30 pm by kendallsteve |
kendallsteve
Member
| Joined: | Wednesday May 31st, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 72 |
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Posted: Saturday May 5th, 2007 05:56 pm |
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Ps, all I had left of my own 997 Cooper was the V5 and the rear number plate  , so its just taking me a bit longer to source all the missing stuff  Steve.
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fyp741c
Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 18th, 2006 |
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| Posts: | 141 |
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Posted: Saturday May 5th, 2007 07:14 pm |
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Your in a very similar situation to me, I bought my S in 1986, suffered a massive rear end shunt in 1993.
Left it all for 25 years until I hit my forties last year and decided to resurrect my old car (although with 5 kids it might take a while).
I thought about re-cloning a cooper shell, but in the end took the view that this would be disingenuous and in effect "robbing peter to pay paul".
In the long run it would probably be cheaper, but I just would not feel right about it --- to me the car would be fraudulent and by extension so would I
I have an 850 shell (no V5 though) of the correct period (1964) and will restore my S using this shell it in good time.
I would never pass it off as anything but a "bitsa" -- to be honest I'm not that fussed about having it 100% original. Coz it certainly wasn’t in 1986, and in fact, as I have pointed out in an earlier post, as a student in the eighties I would do pretty much anything to keep it on the road; originality of said part was fairly low on my list of priorities.
I think you did the right thing and at the end of the day, more minis, especially 60,s minis on the road the better.
James
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Saturday May 5th, 2007 08:12 pm |
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Hi,
I'd mirror all the comments so far and say go for a reshell and get another S back on the road and enjoy it. There's still a lot of half decent 850's about to use as donors - I used one to create my S replica .
If the original shell is restorable and originality is important then it should be restored but if you are not worried about originality or know that the shell is not original to the car, then get a better shell and save a lot of time and money
The whole thing with the 'questionable eBay cars' is the way in which the 'original' cars are advertised. The one's featured are either misrepresented through genuine ignorance of what is correct or misrepresented though downright dishonesty. It's up to the buyer to decide which and looking at our posts can help. 'Economical truth telling' when selling a car is nothing new it's just that the adverts are opened up to a wider audience nowadays. Unless someone has owned the car from new and has 100% provable history on the car, who knows what has happened in the past.
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minorparts
Member
| Joined: | Friday March 23rd, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 732 |
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Posted: Sunday May 6th, 2007 08:04 am |
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Absolutely right Andrew, if Minis4ever doesn't even have a shell, then a reshell is the only option anyway! Just get the best shell you can of the right age, and do the best job you can. If a project DOES have the original shell and it can be saved, I personally would want to save it. Even if much of it had to be replaced it is still the original shell because it is not a DIFFERENT shell.
If you can't perform major bodywork yourself, it is expensive of course. However, in the long run it is the best/most original/correctly restored cars that are worth the most money, so you will have created a better investment for the future.
Finding good parts and cars is getting harder now and if you already have a project car which you just want to get on the road on a limited budget, just do the best you can. A car that is just a bitsa is fine, many 1960s Coopers were no more than that by the 1970s. They will not be as valuable, but hopefully will not have cost too much and can be just as much fun to own and drive, which is the main thing. The only problem is when these cars are passed off as being "original". Buyers just have to do their homework carefully, as was always the case.
If buying a car from scratch, I still think that since restoration costs will almost always exceed the value of a finished car, that the beat thing to do would be to buy a good car in the first place. That is the theory. In practice, you have to find that good car which takes us back to where we started!
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Saturday May 12th, 2007 06:25 pm |
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Judging on these reactions, I guess I made the right choices in the end. For the first story, I do want to get the S restored, not just to get it back on the road but especially because of its history. So, I just have to find a good 850 donor shell of the proper period. I also felt bad about the 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' concept of using the Mk I Cooper as donor for my S, which is actually why I decided to restore that one as well somewhere in the future. For the second story on the Mk II Cooper, I did restore the very bad but original shell all by myself. But even then it was more expensive than using a good donor or Heritage shell (well, at least for the price of 4 years ago).
Thanks for your reactions!
Last edited on Saturday May 12th, 2007 08:54 pm by Mini4Ever |
Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 744 |
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Posted: Saturday May 12th, 2007 11:00 pm |
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I remember reading an article in the MCR mag a good while back where someone had restored a very rotten Cooper and in doing so removed about 80% of the original metal .To me the merits of replacing the vast majority of the panels in order to proclaim the shell as 'original' is somewhat debatable , on the other hand a shell 'saved' is another Mk1 850 that's not wiped out to provide a donor shell. Swings and roundabouts..
It's a personal decision at the end of the day, do what YOU want to do, and what fits in with your budget . Same thing with the originality chestnut, if folk want to build a spot on 'as it left the factory' car all well and good but let's not get carried away with the scrutineering of detail ,there's plenty of owners out there who enjoy the driving experience first and foremost , not the finite detailing, and don't appreciate being told this should be here and that should be there. As Andrew says, the Ebay cars thread is merely to highlight the odd lemon (maybe not so odd eh ?) that's being passed off as a genuine article.
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Sunday May 13th, 2007 09:22 am |
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Well, the Mk II Cooper with the restored shell is going to be used in historic rally events. So, there will be some modifications anyway (like a full roll cage) but I still wanted it to be very close to original. In addition, I used a new boot floor from the Heritage Center, which has for example the seat pan shape for the fuel lines of an MPI (and also the rear subframe mounting panel at the front has a slightly different shape in that area). I may still change the seat pan but I am in the process of finding a good painter as I want to have the car painted before the end of September.
Any suggestions for how to do the paint job? Sandblasting? Rust prevention?
I really hope that I will be able to get the car back on the road before Beaulieu next year... (A promise that I made to myself already last year for this year's event...)
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mk1
Member
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Posted: Tuesday May 15th, 2007 11:07 am |
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IMO, a good reshell into as close a correct shell as possible is always preferable to a patched up old bit of nonesense.
M.
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Flygirl
Member
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Posted: Saturday May 26th, 2007 07:00 pm |
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Having done both a reshell/resto as well as a number of original shell restos, I will ad my comments to the discussion. In my view, as long as you are not misrepresenting a car when selling it, you should restore it any way you can. Those who frequently criticize another's work have often never completed a restoration begining to end, and each person has unique reasons for reshelling or saving the original shell.
Getting more MK1 Minis back on the road is much more important goal than fussing about a shell that is 100% original (and few are)! Of course a car with an original shell should be valued higher than a reshelled car, but with a realistic valuation based on the overall finished quality of the restoration rather than the reshell/original issue alone.
Here is a link to the reshelled car and one to the original shell car
Depending on which crowd you are talking to, the value of each of these cars will be completely different, whether or not you account for the reshell/original shell portion of the equation.
The reshell project was considerably simpler, as the replacement shell was in great condition and only required an a-panel, wings, and minor work. As in Mini4ever's case, we had all the right bits for this 1071 S, and a shell that was so far gone that we did not have the experience to fix it. Others may have, but in our case we did the best job we could with the experience & funds we had.
Some years later, with more $ and experience we took on the original shell project. When we started this project, we also had a perfect MK1 S shell (identical year & color!), but choose instead to fix the original. As you will see from the pictures it was not a simple task! Since this car had been a race car most of it's life, the body was very dented but not at all rusty. The very fact that it would contiue life as a race car once the restoration was complete was an excellent reason not to reshell it with a mint MK1 shell, which could be used for a better car later. Would this race car fetch any less money as a reshell?
We also assisted in the restoration of a friend's very rusty 1969 MKII S, which resulted in over 90% of the original metal being replaced! At what point can you really say it is the "original shell" when that much metal has been grafted in? He would have been much better off to get a good donor shell, but at the time none were for sale and he did not want to hold off on the restoration. Around 300 hours of welding went into making that car whole!
There are pros & cons to both methods, but when you are driving your car down a twisty road who cares? Unless you make false claims when you sell a car, no one should have to make apoligies for putting another Mini back on the road, even if the "perfect" restoration is not possible. Get it on the road and enjoy it!
Cheers,
Rachel
Toybox Racing
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Saturday May 26th, 2007 07:53 pm |
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Thanks for your comments and great story! Both cars look fabulous!
Probably I should have stated right from the beginning that I will not sell any of my Coopers when they are finished.
My Mk II Cooper was in a much worse condition than the resto project you link to - I also did some of those 'dangorous' panel replacements (though not with the side panel but with panels that determine the straightness of the car...). I guess mine was probably not as bad as the Mk 2 S you mention - replacing 90% is really a 'mission impossible'. I may try to get some of the analog pictures that I have on the restoration scanned in to post them here.
Attachment: front2.jpg (Downloaded 466 times)
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android
Member
| Joined: | Wednesday November 9th, 2005 |
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| Posts: | 200 |
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Posted: Saturday May 26th, 2007 08:53 pm |
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Honestly,some people really do have sickening amounts of money don't they ! Me bitter,never.Top job Flygirl,not sure I would want to use a car that looked that good let alone race it !!
DroidLast edited on Saturday May 26th, 2007 08:58 pm by android |
Glen Ponder
MCR Member
| Joined: | Sunday November 13th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 744 |
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Posted: Sunday May 27th, 2007 09:20 am |
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Great rebuild site there Flygirl thanks for sharing.
If you see a certain Mr Walker in a Tartan Red / Black Mk1 998 Cooper registered 4769 VU bombing around Vancouver please say hello, that's my old car !
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:06 am |
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Probably not of interest to everybody, but these are the panels that I replaced on the Mk II Cooper: front panel, full inner and outer front wings, inner and outer A panels, full length scuttle panel, complete toe board, bulkhead X-member, full length and width floors but with the original tunel is still in place, floor X-member, full length door steps, door skin panels on donor doors, outer sills, complete rear wings and rear subframe stands, rear storage bins (the original ashtray holders are still in place), complete boot floor, rear subframe mounting panel, lowest 1/5 part of the rear seat bulkhead over the width of the car, rear valence with closing plates, lowest part of the back panel, 3/4 cantrail on one side, drip rail on one side, one of the rear quarter window retainers, some patches to the roof and rear lower coners of the side panels, and probably several other smaller bits and pieces that I forgot...
That's how I got to a removal of about 70% of the original metal.
Actually I just wanted to post a picture of the floor of the car when I just removed about all the real rust around the rear seat pan... (I didn't succeed in attaching multiple pictures to one post).
Attachment: back3.jpg (Downloaded 99 times) Last edited on Monday May 28th, 2007 11:23 am by Mini4Ever |
Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:14 am |
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That's serious panel replacement. Well done for resurrecting such a rotten shell.
The pic of the rear seat area looks awful.
Just goes to show what can be done if you've got the time, knowledge, patience and money!
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:22 am |
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Well, I guess you didn't want to store those wiskey bottles in those bins
Now you probably also understand that I was afraid to get it sandblasted before welding as I didn't want it to collapse completely... Can you now imagine how the rear subframe was fitted? Basically it was not, but the car had still been used in sport events...
Anyway, it was indeed a time (and money) consuming job but it was kind of a sport challenge to see whether I could get it done... Fortunatly, I somehow succeeded I guess as the car is almost ready for getting a new coat of paint.
This is how the boot looked like at the same day...
Attachment: back4.jpg (Downloaded 94 times) Last edited on Monday May 28th, 2007 11:25 am by Mini4Ever |
Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:31 am |
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| Oh yes, the other side was slightly better... Attachment: back2.jpg (Downloaded 84 times)
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Andrew1967
MCR Member
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 11:38 am |
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Well, you always have to start somewhere but where the hell did you start on that!!! There's hardly anything left of the adjacent flanges to put any new panels up to.
I'll try to attach a pic of my shell, pre sandblast - somewhat better but still not that brilliant!
Attachment: yellow shell.JPG (Downloaded 86 times)
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Mini4Ever
MCR Member
| Joined: | Saturday March 17th, 2007 |
| Location: | Netherlands |
| Posts: | 476 |
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Posted: Monday May 28th, 2007 12:22 pm |
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That also looks like a challenge! It seems that yours was also patched up before you started. Mine was too, twice at the same locations on top of each other to be precise and that probably caused it to be so rusty...
How did I attack this? I had posted that somewhere else too but can't recall were... So, from those pictures of the floor, I basically went a bit further by removing the rear subframe mounting panel and the RH side of the floor - still leaving what was left of the outer sill/door step at that side in place. I cleaned up all the edges to fit in the new rear subframe mounting panel, which could be properly centred because the tunnel was still there and most of the LH floor - but I only welded it onto the tunnel. Then I put in the new RH floor by temoporarily welding it to the door step and toe board (that was still to be replaced at that point - see very first picture) + it was temporarily welded on top of the small piece of floor that was still attched to the tunnel (I kept the floor up to the first gutter from the centre of the car for alignment purposes and to ensure that the final welding - which is panel to panel and not on top of each other - would not give a too much wavy effect). At that point I replaced the LH floor in a similar way. So, that gave a 'new' floor which was already properly welded at the back to the rear subframe mounting panel. Next were the bins and the boot floor. To set this up straight, I ensured that the old subframe stiffner brackets at the back were clean and ready to be used for alignment puposes. I mounted a rear subframe to these + the new boot floor that was to be welded in and to the rear subframe mounting panel that was already in place. This is how the whole back of the car was aligned. From there on, I started to replace the rear wings etc. When the back was strong enough again to get a suspension mounted I started with the front (I needed to move the car out of the garage to turn it around...).
Notice that not all welding was immediately final. In fact, the whole floor was kind of welded in twice... And I also placed the front kind of twice as the first attempt was not too successfull: I had a gap of 1cm between the inner and outer wings where they curve down at the front. That was due to using the subframe for alignment purposes regarding the front panel, but I was stupid enough to support the subframe at the front instead of at the back... The second attempt gave a nearly perfect result.
Now, you may wonder how it looks like now. Here is one picture (Sorry I don't have a very good digital camera so the pitures are a bit fuzzy)...
This was actually the very first car ever that I welded (!!!) even though I restored another shell for a 1275S of a friend in the mean time, which helped in the learning process...
Attachment: finished1.jpg (Downloaded 109 times) Last edited on Monday May 28th, 2007 12:43 pm by Mini4Ever |
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